From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin

Subject: Knapp Interview #1

Date: 24 Dec 89 05:08:00 GMT



DATE OF UPLOAD: December 23, 1989

ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: ParaNet Information Service

CONTRIBUTED BY: Chuck Harder/Special Correspondent to ParaNet

========================================================

(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service

All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.

========================================================



INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS, NEVADA) ON

NOVEMBER 17, 1989. INTERVIEWED BY CHUCK HARDER, HOST AND

MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK.



CHUCK HARDER

My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he is

and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his

own protection. George, are you there...



GEORGE KNAPP

Hello Chuck.



CHUCK HARDER

Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right...



GEORGE KNAPP

That's right.



CHUCK HARDER

George, what do you do for a living?



GEORGE KNAPP

I'm a journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the CBS affiliate

here.



CHUCK HARDER

So you are a TV newsman...



GEORGE KNAPP

Right.



CHUCK HARDER

And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...



GEORGE KNAPP

Right.



CHUCK HARDER

I understand that you have come upon some very interesting

information and you've done some special reports, could you tell

us about it...?



GEORGE KNAPP

Well we just finished a nine-part series -- what may be the

longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with

UFOs.



Our research actually started about two and a half years ago, a

fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the Lear

Jet brought some of this information to our attention. In May of

this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to have

worked at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret Nevada

test site...the fellow said that he worked on flying saucers,

that the technology was not from Earth, and we interviewed him

live in silhouette in May, the response was incredible...we got

response from Japan, parts of that interview aired on radio in

Europe, and six different European countries...so we decided with

this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in

more depth.



We started doing that and the first thing we found out is that

really UFOs have not been given a fair shake by science, by

government, by religion and especially by journalism. Millions

of people have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I think the

latest Gallup poll shows about 70 percent of college-educated

Americans believe that there's something to it, but because of

the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies'

-- kind of things in the National Enquirer, people have shied

away from it...Serious people have shied away. Scientists,

although they might be interested in searching the universe for

radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard --

they can't get grants...people would laugh at them. Journalism -

- the coverage is generally condescending and quirky, especially

by the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that supposedly

landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we figured out

that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the

'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?' So we started

investigating it. The focal point of the story being this fellow

who said he worked at S-4. We broke his identity last Friday.

His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los

Alamos National Labs, he is a physicist...we did a lot of

checking on him and found interestingly enough that his life was

disappearing around him. In other words we called Los Alamos

Labs and they said they never heard of him. We called MIT where

he says he went to school and they had never heard of him. We

called for his Birth records and they had disappeared...as if

someone was trying to make him a non-person. We did however

confirm some of the information that he had given us...we found

newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had indeed

worked there...we found an old telephone book from the lab with

his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in

our eyes. The story he tells is an incredible one. He was hired

to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up

to a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows to

S-4...the base is built almost to look like its part of the

desert with sand covered hanger doors, he goes inside and he

starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs! Pictures

of UFOs on the walls, pictures of aliens, autopsy reports on

alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed. Then

he sees the discs. He says there are nine of the discs up there,

they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which produces its own

gravitational field...technology that does not exist on this

planet, and the interesting thing...he thought for a while that

perhaps it was just an advanced secret scientific project that

our government is pursuing until he looked inside one of the

discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were built

like for children...and then things started coming together for

him. Are you with me Chuck?



CHUCK HARDER

I'm listening.



GEORGE KNAPP

Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on...



CHUCK HARDER

Oh I think you ought to keep going.



GEORGE KNAPP

Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months. And it was

a rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and he

was being harassed at home, his phones being tapped...plus he's

on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he starts

to tell other people about it, confide with close friends.



CHUCK HARDER

Ummmmmm.....



GEORGE KNAPP

He had the date of a couple of tests and on two consecutive

weekends he took people up into the desert outside of the

boundaries of area S-4, and they video taped the saucers...what

looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!



CHUCK HARDER

Wow...



GEORGE KNAPP

We showed that video as well...



CHUCK HARDER

Uh-huh....



GEORGE KNAPP

Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up there

confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits

of his story from other people, a former security guard who

worked up there...who said he had seen the saucers, a former

technician...



CHUCK HARDER

By the way, excuse me, I have some letters from some people

postmarked from that area, one inside of a base, who tells me

what you're saying is true. Keep going.



GEORGE KNAPP

Ah, we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty at

Nellis airbase which is here just south of the area that this

fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing...



CHUCK HARDER

George, excuse me...let me do the half hour news break, I want

you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please stand

by.

At this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour news

headlines and sports audio package from UPI<<<<



(After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have

just tuned in...)



CHUCK HARDER

How many reports did you do, George?



GEORGE KNAPP

We did nine total in this series.



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told me

that a scientist named Bob Lazar...



GEORGE KNAPP

Right...



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, came to you and came to the public and apparently was

concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get

news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and

yes they are near...it's near Nellis, is it not?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yes.



CHUCK HARDER

Cause I have letters from people who are at Nellis. Some of

which don't want to give their name, some of which gave their

name, I have the postmarks. Tell us now if you would, start the

story from the fact that the gentleman has revealed that there

are nine of these things. We're listening and so is America.



GEORGE KNAPP

Well, we wanted to try to confirm as much of his story as

possible from other sources of course, so we started looking for

other people who might have knowledge of what's going on up

there...as I mentioned, I found a former security guard who said

that he had seen the saucers up there, I found a former

technician who said that he had walked into a room inadvertently

and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked

in radar and said that basically he and his fellow airman has

seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to

7,000 miles per hour on radar...these things would stop on a

dime, so the guy knew that this is not your average airplane

that's doing this. We also interviewed the other people who went

with Lazar up on two consecutive weeks, they test them on

Wednesdays for some reason, and videotaped the tests, saw these

things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well.



We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked for

up there -- we made Freedom of Information Act requests for

information about the various specific programs he mentioned, of

course the Navy denied having any information on the programs.

Of course in those requests we also asked for other information

about UFOs, stuff the Navy has already released and they denied

having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot of faith

in the FOIA requests.



CHUCK HARDER

In other words, what you're saying is that your organization

which is KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, plus many other UFO research

groups have uncovered many UFO documents that the government

says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when you

ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'



GEORGE KNAPP

Exactly...that's exactly correct!



CHUCK HARDER

I understand from MUFON and many other groups that there are

somewhere from four to seven thousand documents that prove

that...yes these things exist, copies of the documents are in

private hands, then you go and ask the government and they say,

'Well, er, no we don't remember...'



GEORGE KNAPP

The government says that they have done these studies that say

that UFOs are no threat to national security, they're either

psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts when

they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind the

scenes they are very concerned about the national security

implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't

be caught, things of that nature. So the government from what

I've read is very concerned about the phenomena and doesn't

really understand it. The government on the other hand has

outright lied concerning what information it does have...the CIA

for example says it doesn't collect any information on

UFOs...well that's just patently not true. We have documents

from the CIA, a lot of it is blacked out, which mentions UFO

studies by the CIA, UFO research, CIA-UFO experts, agency

personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to

us all along. I didn't expect to get any confirmation regarding

what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.



CHUCK HARDER

Before we went to the half-hour break you said that when he

looked inside one of these discs there were little furniture,

give me some information...



GEORGE KNAPP

Well he feels that they were bringing him along, giving him a

piece at a time. He would see a saucer one day, the next he

would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of them...after

that he got to see the inside of the thing. He also got to see a

demonstration of it. He was told to stand back and watch

this...and the thing lights up real bright...I guess the power

that's produced is incredible, you need to produce your own

gravitational field and it raised up, he wasn't sure who was

flying it or was it remotely or what. He watched it raise up,

did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down. Part of the reason

he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or the

government, but because the research that's being done up there

is being handled in a clumsy fashion. If they have had these for

as long as forty years, which is what he believes, they haven't

come to far in trying to understand them. Some of the discs he

said he saw up there were being taken apart, kind of a reverse

archaeology process to figure out how they worked. Some of the

research going on up there is aimed at trying to duplicate the

things that these machines can do using earth technologies and

earth materials and he says it just can't be done. The key to

the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'...it

does not exist on our periodic charts, he believes that wherever

it came from its a naturally occurring element, he says we have

500 pounds of this stuff up there, just a little tiny sliver of

it produces incredible amounts of power. Its the '115' that we

will not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one of the reasons

that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are

working, putting their energy into trying to master the secrets

of gravity and the secrets of anti-matter technology and here

we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job with

it -- this little batch of scientists hidden out in the desert

are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job...



CHUCK HARDER

But this is kind of common with the United States government...I

read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount

of material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll find where

one group in one part of the country is working on a project and

I'll get a clipping where another group is working on the same

project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other!



GEORGE KNAPP

Yeah, Yeah -- that's exactly right...he said the

compartmentalization up there was very severe as well so that

nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill the

beans as he has been trying to do.



CHUCK HARDER

Alright, what does he feel the public should know and what does

he feel should be done?



GEORGE KNAPP

Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was to

save his own life. He started having some problems when it

became obvious to his employers that he was telling someone else

about this.



CHUCK HARDER

We're talking about Bob Lazar now...



GEORGE KNAPP

Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him, calling

him up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang up!

He tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and the

meetings didn't come off, he says somebody took a shot at him on

the freeway...obviously he realizes that if they really wanted to

kill him, they could. Maybe perhaps they were just trying to

shut him up. He feels that what is going on up there is a crime

against the entire scientific community...not only the American

people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't been

told alien technology exists, but also against the scientific

community. So, what else can I tell ya?



CHUCK HARDER

What does he say about the aliens?



GEORGE KNAPP

He's reluctant to talk about that, apparently he did see some

aliens up there...



CHUCK HARDER

Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yeah, he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and I don't

think I should go much further on that...part of the discussion

until I can talk to him, but he has indications that there are

aliens up there, at least one...



CHUCK HARDER

Live?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yeah, it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in our

reports because I couldn't confirm any thing of that nature, I

couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so...



CHUCK HARDER

What did they look like?



GEORGE KNAPP

Your classic Grey...the little big-headed almond eyed-grey

skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of the

UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it as well

because it sounds so crazy...



CHUCK HARDER

I don't think it's crazy at all, there was an article, let me

digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front

page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of

the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced two

of the grapes with cyanide a couple of hours before the FDA,

stumbled on them and it was an inside job apparently while the

grapes were in the inspection station...and it was not done on

the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little

grapes that almost bankrupted the country of Chile! If two

little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The Wall

Street Journal about the questions about the truthfulness and

what happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever

get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!



GEORGE KNAPP

Well, I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if

this is true; how can the government keep this a secret all this

time? A story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on

other things, how could the coverup exist?



CHUCK HARDER

Oh, I'll tell you...



GEORGE KNAPP

To which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked the

question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the

world to keep a secret because if it does come out, little bits

and pieces, who's going to believe it?



CHUCK HARDER

Exactly...let me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yes...



CHUCK HARDER

For those who are listening, I got into this investigation

because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck

you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in

the past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on a pay

phone coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and so on.

So we started buying the books and contacting UFO organizations.

I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass who was always

there...somehow he as always there and he said that everything

was bunk! And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine

which is of course is the mouthpiece for the Military/Industrial

complex and they certainly wouldn't want this technology to be

out! I was also amazed when I saw the stealth bomber (tests)

live on CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at the same

place, (runway) do you remember that...?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yes...



CHUCK HARDER

My question is: If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret, how

could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on the

same runway at a super-secret airforce base? How could he have

pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth? My feeling was,

probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!



GEORGE KNAPP

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, because the security up

there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what they

want out of it.



CHUCK HARDER

So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil

Klass and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed to know

everything, what your saying is the ridicule factor...if Billy

Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes it

to the paper, everybody laughs at him!



GEORGE KNAPP

There are actual documents the government has released (Under

Freedom of Information Act) that show it has an active program

that started back in the fifties...the CIA even used the term

DEBUNKING, there were discussions about using Walt Disney to

produce cartoons that made fun of people who had seen flying

saucers...they were going to bring Arthur Godfrey in as their

spokesperson. Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained away

UFO sightings seen by thousands of people as the constellation

ORION, when you can only see ORION from the other side of the

planet.



CHUCK HARDER

Uh huh...



GEORGE KNAPP

He uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain the

sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and the

examples that he is trying to explain occur in cloudless skies

where there is no lightning around. You mention the Condon

report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that the

government has done in the past, they commission a study, it's

supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing,

Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was nothing

to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at

one point that the authors of UFO books should be HORSEWHIPPED!

One of the explanations that came from the Condon Committee

witnessed by several people, they described it as, a natural

phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since! I

don't think this kind of a thing is an accident!



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a UFO) and

from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens, some

have been coming here for years and years and it's nothing new...



GEORGE KNAPP

Right...



CHUCK HARDER

Why is it in some parts of the world (now) they report other

types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have

beautiful photos of some, and as I told you off-the-air, we're

going to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine if someone

doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...



GEORGE KNAPP

You're talking about the Billy Meier case, if you want to touch

on that, we also did some investigation on that...



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, go ahead.



GEORGE KNAPP

Billy Meier, I've always been intrigued by that, and wanted to

check them out. Its been pretty much written-off by the UFO

community but when we put questions to them about the case they

can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to

Lee Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case

and started going over the evidence. The photos had been

analyzed by independent experts, the film footage and video had

been analyzed, the metal sample had been confirmed as something

we don't have -- technology of cold fusion was used to produce

this metal, the landing sites, the strange circular patterns in

the grass that are now only gaining attention in Britain and

other countries, all of this stuff had never been pretty much

discounted by the UFO community because Elders and Wendelle

Stevens had gone outside of the UFO community to get

confirmation. The UFO people were kept out of it, the Billy

Meier case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness in UFOLOGY

and that's the jealousy that permeates the field...everybody

wants to be the only one with the real story of UFOs, so they

kind of written this guy off only because he didn't cooperate

with them.



CHUCK HARDER

We have been able to get some photos from a source who has some

negatives that were just recently located...some from ten feet

away, I used to be in the motion picture business. If they are

models they cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if a simple

Swiss farmer could have done it...



GEORGE KNAPP

I'd agree with ya, the reason we got interested in Billy Meier,

it goes back to Lazar, was because Bob Lazar says, the saucer

that he saw fly, he dubbed it the sport model, was the same

saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same.



CHUCK HARDER

The new ones or the old ones?



GEORGE KNAPP

The new one.



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, that's the one we've got.



GEORGE KNAPP

Going back to the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4, he saw the nine

saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the

variety pack, but the one he saw fly was like the one in the

Meier photo. (There are Three types photographed by Billy

Meier.)



That's why we decided to check out the Meier part of the (UFO)

story.

At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a

break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr. and

Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth.<<<<



CHUCK HARDER

I hope that Mr. and Mrs. America make note of the name George

Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you

know why.



GEORGE KNAPP

Someone should tell us what's going on...TV and movies have

conditioned us...we won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran for

President promised that if he was elected that he vowed to open

all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and

he didn't respond. We want the government to come clean. If

that takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that

should be looked at. If it is launched we have to make sure that

there are no CIA, contractors and the like involved otherwise

people aren't going to believe it. We've seen enough of this

whitewash stuff over the years. If there's nothing to the story,

then open up the files and prove it to us!



CHUCK HARDER

OK, have the government let the press into these areas and don't

first clean them out...

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